darcs

Patch 401 More visible old-fashioned to hashed notice.

Title More visible old-fashioned to hashed notice.
Superseder Nosy List kowey
Related Issues
Status accepted Assigned To
Milestone 2.5.1

Created on 2010-09-20.12:50:24 by kowey, last changed 2011-05-10.22:07:54 by darcswatch. Tracked on DarcsWatch.

Files
File name Status Uploaded Type Edit Remove
more-visible-old_fashioned-to-hashed-notice_.dpatch kowey, 2010-09-20.12:50:23 text/x-darcs-patch
more-visible-old_fashioned-to-hashed-notice_.dpatch kowey, 2010-09-21.18:42:16 text/x-darcs-patch
more-visible-old_fashioned-to-hashed-notice_.dpatch kowey, 2010-09-22.10:03:11 text/x-darcs-patch
more-visible-old_fashioned-to-hashed-notice_.dpatch kowey, 2010-10-05.12:56:18 text/x-darcs-patch
more-visible-old_fashioned-to-hashed-notice_.dpatch kowey, 2010-10-06.10:19:37 text/x-darcs-patch
unnamed kowey, 2010-09-20.12:50:23
unnamed kowey, 2010-09-21.18:42:16
unnamed kowey, 2010-09-22.10:03:11
unnamed kowey, 2010-10-05.12:56:18
unnamed kowey, 2010-10-06.10:19:37
See mailing list archives for discussion on individual patches.
Messages
msg12590 (view) Author: kowey Date: 2010-09-20.12:50:23
1 patch for repository http://darcs.net/releases/branch-2.5:

The context of this change is that old-fashioned repositories are on their way
out after Darcs 2.5.

As part of our deprecation homework, we should try to make sure the transition
happens smoothly, for example, by ensuring that as many repositories as
possible are upgraded before Darcs 2.8 is released.

The proposed banner looks like this:

*******************************************************************************
  _______   Sorry for the wait! The repository you are fetching is using the   
 |       |  DEPRECATED 'old-fashioned' format. I'm fetching it as a hashed     
 | O   O |  repository instead, but this may take a while.                     
 |  ___  |                                                                     
 | /   \ |  It would be ideal if the repository maintainer could upgrade the  
 |_______|  remote copy as well. The hashed format requires a Darcs 2 client,  
            but is otherwise compatible with existing old-fashioned branches.  
                                                                               
            Upgrading is easy with Darcs 2.4 and higher:                       
             example.com $ cd repo-name                                        
             example.com $ darcs optimize --upgrade                            
*******************************************************************************

I imagine this could use some more thought. I had quite a few false starts
at http://hpaste.org/30232/more_forceful_upgrade_notice (with #darcs being
helpful to fix a lot of mis-thinking)

Elements in play:

* Big frowny face: Three ideas here: emotional feedback (old-fashioned
  makes Darcs sad), apologeticness (Sorry for the wait), and mostly
  high-visibility (a face might jump out at you more than yet another
  banner, so to be used sparingly)

* Using users to get at repository maintainers: a past version of this
  plus drafts, basically asked you to get repository maintainers to do the
  upgrade (since you can't do it yourself).  But this isn't necessarily
  easy, so I've made the language a lot softer.

* Slight sell: upgrading is backwards-compatible and easy.  I tried to
  qualify the backwards-compatible a bit

* Upgrade example: I thought maybe concretely showing you not just the
  command to run, but how you would actually run them could more sucessfully
  convey not just how to do it (err, do I optimize --upgrade foo, or do I
  cd foo; optimize --upgrade?), but also that it's easy (one command).
  Sort of show rather than tell.

So it's just about maximising effectiveness in getting people to switch, and
preparing the ground so it will be relatively painless when we finally withdraw
old-fashioned, while hopefully not insulting/annoying users in the process...

Worth a shot?  :-/

Mon Sep 20 13:33:03 BST 2010  Eric Kow <kowey@darcs.net>
  * More visible old-fashioned to hashed notice.
  This also talks about old-fashioned as being deprecated.


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msg12591 (view) Author: mornfall Date: 2010-09-20.13:02:42
Eric Kow <bugs@darcs.net> writes:
> *******************************************************************************
>   _______   Sorry for the wait! The repository you are fetching is using the   
>  |       |  DEPRECATED 'old-fashioned' format. I'm fetching it as a hashed     
>  | O   O |  repository instead, but this may take a while.                     
>  |  ___  |                                                                     
>  | /   \ |  It would be ideal if the repository maintainer could upgrade the  
>  |_______|  remote copy as well. The hashed format requires a Darcs 2 client,  
>             but is otherwise compatible with existing old-fashioned branches.  
>                                                                                
>             Upgrading is easy with Darcs 2.4 and higher:                       
>              example.com $ cd repo-name                                        
>              example.com $ darcs optimize --upgrade                            
> *******************************************************************************

Can we shorten it slightly? It is quite huge... E.g. you could probably
roll the cd repo-name into darcs optimize --upgrade --repo ... Other
than that, it's certainly an improvement. Maybe "fetching it as" could
say converting.

> * Big frowny face: Three ideas here: emotional feedback (old-fashioned
>   makes Darcs sad), apologeticness (Sorry for the wait), and mostly
>   high-visibility (a face might jump out at you more than yet another
>   banner, so to be used sparingly)

Agreed.

> So it's just about maximising effectiveness in getting people to switch, and
> preparing the ground so it will be relatively painless when we finally withdraw
> old-fashioned, while hopefully not insulting/annoying users in the process...
>
> Worth a shot?  :-/

Definitely, IMHO.

Yours,
   Petr.
msg12594 (view) Author: kowey Date: 2010-09-21.18:42:16
1 patch for repository http://darcs.net/releases/branch-2.5:

Changes:
 - a bit more concision
 - 72 chars (the idea is that people might email this
   saying "hey, I saw this when I tried to do a darcs
   get" and in the replies...)
 - more urgency (June 2011)

This is amended, mind you.

Tue Sep 21 19:38:52 BST 2010  Eric Kow <kowey@darcs.net>
  * More visible old-fashioned to hashed notice.
  This also talks about old-fashioned as being deprecated.


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msg12597 (view) Author: kowey Date: 2010-09-22.10:03:11
1 patch for repository http://darcs.net/releases/branch-2.5:

One last amendment on my part (I'm screening this version):

Thinking about this a little bit more, I've restored the two line
version of the upgrade instructions.  While this is longer, I
think they will save us effort in the long term by implicitly
reassuring users that the upgrade operation can be done in place.

***********************************************************************
  _______   Sorry for the wait! The repository you are fetching is
 |       |  using the DEPRECATED 'old-fashioned' format. I'm getting a
 | O   O |  hashed copy instead, but this may take a while.
 |  ___  |
 | /   \ |  We recommend that the maintainer upgrade the remote copy
 |_______|  as well because the next major Darcs release (June 2011)
            will not be able to read old-fashioned repositories. The
            hashed format requires a Darcs 2 client, but is otherwise
            compatible with existing old-fashioned branches.

            Upgrading is easy with Darcs 2.4 and higher:
            example.com $ cd path/to/repo
            example.com $ darcs optimize --upgrade
***********************************************************************


Wed Sep 22 11:00:10 BST 2010  Eric Kow <kowey@darcs.net>
  * More visible old-fashioned to hashed notice.
  This also talks about old-fashioned as being deprecated.


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msg12615 (view) Author: mornfall Date: 2010-09-28.07:59:37
Isaac Dupree <ml@isaac.cedarswampstudios.org> writes:
> ~~~ Also I wonder--a bit off topic (should I have started or replied-to another
> thread?)-- Darcs 2.0 thru 2.5 can convert a repo from hashed to old-fashioned,
> at least using 'get'-- Will 2.8 drop this ability completely? Or can there be
> an optimize --downgrade?  (In order to make people less nervous about
> upgrading, if they know it won't be too annoying to go back later, where
> "annoying" = having to use a 2.0..2.5 binary.)

Well, I am not sure it's that much use. If you don't want to use a 2.5
binary... even if 2.8 would let you downgrade to old-fashioned, you
would still need 2.5 or older to actually *do* anything with your
repository.

So the only use-case I can think of is a gateway for darcs 1.0 users. Is
that what you had in mind?

Yours,
   Petr.
msg12617 (view) Author: ml Date: 2010-09-28.08:31:49
The ignorant-reader-treatment:

On 09/22/10 06:03, Eric Kow wrote:
> ...because the next major Darcs release (June 2011)
>              will not be able to read old-fashioned repositories.

and

>              Upgrading is easy with Darcs 2.4 and higher:

makes me wonder whether darcs 2.8 will be able to upgrade old-fashioned 
repositories if (as suggested by the first bit) it cannot even read 
them; whereas the second bit suggests that all foreseen releases (the 
June 2011 one being foreseen because it's mentioned) will be able to do 
the upgrade (otherwise it would say "is easy with Darcs 2.4 or 2.5").

...I looked around & I think the plan is to support 'darcs optimize 
--upgrade' and no other operations on old-fashioned repos, in 2.8?  Then 
I can't see an obvious change to the wording...it really is a seeming 
contradiction (it's for partly political reasons that we're only 
supporting upgrade, not get, for example -- Explaining that isn't useful 
enough to add a sentence to the message though.).

~~~ Also I wonder--a bit off topic (should I have started or replied-to 
another thread?)-- Darcs 2.0 thru 2.5 can convert a repo from hashed to 
old-fashioned, at least using 'get'-- Will 2.8 drop this ability 
completely? Or can there be an optimize --downgrade?  (In order to make 
people less nervous about upgrading, if they know it won't be too 
annoying to go back later, where "annoying" = having to use a 2.0..2.5 
binary.)

-Isaac
msg12618 (view) Author: ml Date: 2010-09-29.06:08:39
On 09/28/10 04:00, Petr Rockai wrote:
> Isaac Dupree<ml@isaac.cedarswampstudios.org>  writes:
>> ~~~ Also I wonder--a bit off topic (should I have started or replied-to another
>> thread?)-- Darcs 2.0 thru 2.5 can convert a repo from hashed to old-fashioned,
>> at least using 'get'-- Will 2.8 drop this ability completely? Or can there be
>> an optimize --downgrade?  (In order to make people less nervous about
>> upgrading, if they know it won't be too annoying to go back later, where
>> "annoying" = having to use a 2.0..2.5 binary.)
>
> Well, I am not sure it's that much use. If you don't want to use a 2.5
> binary... even if 2.8 would let you downgrade to old-fashioned, you
> would still need 2.5 or older to actually *do* anything with your
> repository.
>
> So the only use-case I can think of is a gateway for darcs 1.0 users. Is
> that what you had in mind?

I should've made that clearer--yes-- For those people who are still 
using Darcs 1.0 binaries who might be nervous about the upgrade. 
Otherwise it doesn't really matter. (Assuming we're not *also* planning 
on introducing new repo formats anytime soon that 2.5 can't read...).
msg12654 (view) Author: kowey Date: 2010-10-05.12:56:18
2 patches for repository http://darcs.net:

In light of postponed adventure:

***********************************************************************
  _______   Sorry for the wait! The repository you are fetching is
 |       |  using the DEPRECATED 'old-fashioned' format. I'm getting a
 | O   O |  hashed copy instead, but this may take a while.
 |  ___  |
 | /   \ |  The hashed format requires a Darcs 2 client, but is otherwise
 |_______|  compatible with existing old-fashioned branches.

            We recommend that the maintainer upgrade the remote copy to
            hashed as soon as possible. When we have retire old-fashioned
            repositories for good, Darcs will still do in place upgrading
            for old-fashioned repositories but provide no other support,
            not even darcs get.

            Upgrading is easy with Darcs 2.4 and higher:
            example.com $ cd path/to/repo
            example.com $ darcs optimize --upgrade
***********************************************************************

Changes:
- moved up text talking about hashed repos vs old-fashioned
  (you can still push/pull).
- remove the date
- clarify the extent to which we'll support old-fashioned

Wed Sep 22 11:00:10 BST 2010  Eric Kow <kowey@darcs.net>
  * More visible old-fashioned to hashed notice.
  This also talks about old-fashioned as being deprecated.

Tue Oct  5 13:50:29 BST 2010  Eric Kow <kowey@darcs.net>
  * Remove date from old-fashioned get banner and clarify future support.


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msg12655 (view) Author: mornfall Date: 2010-10-05.13:55:23
Eric Kow <bugs@darcs.net> writes:
> In light of postponed adventure:
>
> ***********************************************************************
>   _______   Sorry for the wait! The repository you are fetching is
>  |       |  using the DEPRECATED 'old-fashioned' format. I'm getting a
>  | O   O |  hashed copy instead, but this may take a while.
>  |  ___  |
>  | /   \ |  The hashed format requires a Darcs 2 client, but is otherwise
>  |_______|  compatible with existing old-fashioned branches.
>
>             We recommend that the maintainer upgrade the remote copy to
>             hashed as soon as possible. When we have retire old-fashioned
have retire --> have retired? or just retire?

>             repositories for good, Darcs will still do in place upgrading
in place --> in-place?

>             for old-fashioned repositories but provide no other support,
>             not even darcs get.
I would avoid explicit mention of darcs get here. You save a line and
it also seems that supporting get+pull may be only couple lines of code
in addition to what you need for --upgrade.

Yours,
   Petr.
msg12664 (view) Author: kowey Date: 2010-10-06.10:19:37
2 patches for repository http://darcs.net:

Taking Petr's observations into account, not over-insisting on the limitations.

***********************************************************************
  _______   Sorry for the wait! The repository you are fetching is
 |       |  using the DEPRECATED 'old-fashioned' format. I'm getting a
 | O   O |  hashed copy instead, but this may take a while.
 |  ___  |
 | /   \ |  The hashed format requires a Darcs 2 client, but is otherwise
 |_______|  compatible with existing old-fashioned branches.

            We recommend that the maintainer upgrade the remote copy to
            hashed as soon as possible. When we have retired old-fashioned
            repositories for good, Darcs may not provide support for them
            beyond in-place upgrading.

            Upgrading is easy with Darcs 2.4 and higher:
            example.com $ cd path/to/repo
            example.com $ darcs optimize --upgrade
***********************************************************************

Wed Sep 22 11:00:10 BST 2010  Eric Kow <kowey@darcs.net>
  * More visible old-fashioned to hashed notice.
  This also talks about old-fashioned as being deprecated.

Wed Oct  6 11:14:47 BST 2010  Eric Kow <kowey@darcs.net>
  * Remove date from old-fashioned get banner and clarify future support.


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msg12866 (view) Author: gh Date: 2010-11-02.10:08:02
Shouldn't this patch go in branch-2.5 ?
It is only useful there. For 2.8 it will be too late since that version
will probably not be able to get from OF repositories.
msg13262 (view) Author: kowey Date: 2010-11-24.22:49:16
Setting milestone to 2.5 (now that we can)
msg13318 (view) Author: ganesh Date: 2010-12-11.17:11:17
I guess we've had plenty of time to discuss this further if necessary, so 
I'm going to push it into unstable. (Even if I think it's a bit ugly :-)

This is also wanted for 2.5.1
msg13319 (view) Author: kowey Date: 2010-12-11.17:16:38
On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 17:11:17 +0000, Ganesh Sittampalam wrote:
> (Even if I think it's a bit ugly :-)

Yeah :-/
Hopefully somebody can fix that

-- 
Eric Kow <http://www.nltg.brighton.ac.uk/home/Eric.Kow>
For a faster response, try +44 (0)1273 64 2905 or
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msg13377 (view) Author: darcswatch Date: 2010-12-17.22:55:52
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msg13570 (view) Author: ganesh Date: 2011-01-23.23:54:08
The current text says "the next major darcs release will not be able to 
read old-fashioned repositories". This isn't actually true, is it? We 
plan to be able to get and pull from them, and to optimize --upgrade 
them. (See http://lists.osuosl.org/pipermail/darcs-users/2010-
November/025779.html). I guess we ought to also support push and send, 
otherwise working with older repos will be a nightmare.

We should figure out exactly what we plan to do and then update the text 
to reflect that, preferably before 2.5.1...
msg13571 (view) Author: gh Date: 2011-01-24.12:40:28
Hi Ganesh,

yes, the supported operations are going to be:

* pull
* get
* send
* optimize --upgrade

Basically those are operations that do not use the old pristine (plain
pristine). So, someone with Darcs 2.8 should be able to contribute to
a project (get, pull, send) whose public repository is in OF format.

This is what is currently going on in http://bugs.darcs.net/patch510 .

Maybe the proper way to say it would be that OF repositories are not
recommended and only read-only operations are supported on them.

guillaume

2011/1/24 Ganesh Sittampalam <bugs@darcs.net>:
>
> Ganesh Sittampalam <ganesh@earth.li> added the comment:
>
> The current text says "the next major darcs release will not be able to
> read old-fashioned repositories". This isn't actually true, is it? We
> plan to be able to get and pull from them, and to optimize --upgrade
> them. (See http://lists.osuosl.org/pipermail/darcs-users/2010-
> November/025779.html). I guess we ought to also support push and send,
> otherwise working with older repos will be a nightmare.
>
> We should figure out exactly what we plan to do and then update the text
> to reflect that, preferably before 2.5.1...
>
> __________________________________
> Darcs bug tracker <bugs@darcs.net>
> <http://bugs.darcs.net/patch401>
> __________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> darcs-devel mailing list
> darcs-devel@darcs.net
> http://lists.osuosl.org/mailman/listinfo/darcs-devel
>
msg13572 (view) Author: ganesh Date: 2011-01-24.12:49:40
push to a remote server with an older version of darcs should work ok 
too, shouldn't it? Since we just invoke darcs apply at the remote end.

It's a messy story (push to remote works, push to local doesn't), but I 
think it's an important scenario for interacting with projects that 
haven't updated.
msg13573 (view) Author: gh Date: 2011-01-24.13:11:19
> push to a remote server with an older version of darcs should work ok
> too, shouldn't it? Since we just invoke darcs apply at the remote end.

Yes, pushing via ssh should work. Maybe some people will use Darcs 2.8
"on" OF repositories like this and will not notice any difference.

> It's a messy story (push to remote works, push to local doesn't), but I
> think it's an important scenario for interacting with projects that
> haven't updated.

So maybe we should add that Darcs can push via ssh to OF repositories
if the remote Darcs can apply to OF? I'm mixed between telling the
whole truth and confusing users with a long message, or not telling
about push-via-ssh and concentrating on the "you should upgrade,
minimal support only" message.

guillaume
msg13574 (view) Author: ganesh Date: 2011-01-24.13:26:03
Can we phrase it in terms of no local support beyond upgrade, but remote 
support being kept?
msg13587 (view) Author: gh Date: 2011-01-25.20:04:27
I propose keeping the current message just replacing the word "read" by
"modify":

"...the next major Darcs release [...] will not be able to modify
old-fashioned repositories."


This is http://bugs.darcs.net/patch535
msg14355 (view) Author: darcswatch Date: 2011-05-10.21:36:23
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History
Date User Action Args
2010-09-20 12:50:24koweycreate
2010-09-20 12:50:56darcswatchsetdarcswatchurl: http://darcswatch.nomeata.de/repo_http:__darcs.net_.html#bundle-21193f160ca3215a81e05fc4be8bc3c06dba3bc1
2010-09-20 13:02:42mornfallsetmessages: + msg12591
2010-09-21 18:42:16koweysetfiles: + more-visible-old_fashioned-to-hashed-notice_.dpatch, unnamed
messages: + msg12594
2010-09-21 18:43:17darcswatchsetdarcswatchurl: http://darcswatch.nomeata.de/repo_http:__darcs.net_.html#bundle-21193f160ca3215a81e05fc4be8bc3c06dba3bc1 -> http://darcswatch.nomeata.de/repo_http:__darcs.net_.html#bundle-e9ff75497a3d31faa0fa9528509ebf74df28124c
2010-09-22 10:03:12koweysetfiles: + more-visible-old_fashioned-to-hashed-notice_.dpatch, unnamed
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2010-09-22 10:04:59darcswatchsetdarcswatchurl: http://darcswatch.nomeata.de/repo_http:__darcs.net_.html#bundle-e9ff75497a3d31faa0fa9528509ebf74df28124c -> http://darcswatch.nomeata.de/repo_http:__darcs.net_.html#bundle-fc2df6411fe5c6e7fb84a6c6b63cb5d29ebca020
2010-09-28 07:59:37mornfallsetmessages: + msg12615
2010-09-28 08:31:49mlsetmessages: + msg12617
2010-09-29 06:08:39mlsetmessages: + msg12618
2010-10-04 20:26:02ganeshsetstatus: needs-screening -> needs-review
2010-10-05 12:56:18koweysetfiles: + more-visible-old_fashioned-to-hashed-notice_.dpatch, unnamed
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2010-10-05 12:57:45darcswatchsetdarcswatchurl: http://darcswatch.nomeata.de/repo_http:__darcs.net_.html#bundle-fc2df6411fe5c6e7fb84a6c6b63cb5d29ebca020 -> http://darcswatch.nomeata.de/repo_http:__darcs.net_.html#bundle-5a6891f80f6f0d1562e5991ab32b72601e6bab9e
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2010-10-06 10:20:53darcswatchsetdarcswatchurl: http://darcswatch.nomeata.de/repo_http:__darcs.net_.html#bundle-5a6891f80f6f0d1562e5991ab32b72601e6bab9e -> http://darcswatch.nomeata.de/repo_http:__darcs.net_.html#bundle-dc00944f3f8705ec63485ca68e1608e408f28fc4
2010-11-02 10:08:02ghsetmessages: + msg12866
2010-11-24 22:49:17koweysetmessages: + msg13262
milestone: 2.5.0
2010-12-11 17:11:17ganeshsetstatus: needs-review -> accepted-pending-tests
messages: + msg13318
milestone: 2.5.0 -> 2.5.1
2010-12-11 17:16:38koweysetmessages: + msg13319
2010-12-17 22:55:53darcswatchsetstatus: accepted-pending-tests -> accepted
messages: + msg13377
2011-01-23 23:54:09ganeshsetmessages: + msg13570
2011-01-24 12:40:29ghsetmessages: + msg13571
2011-01-24 12:49:40ganeshsetmessages: + msg13572
2011-01-24 13:11:19ghsetmessages: + msg13573
2011-01-24 13:26:03ganeshsetmessages: + msg13574
2011-01-25 20:04:27ghsetmessages: + msg13587
2011-05-10 18:05:52darcswatchsetdarcswatchurl: http://darcswatch.nomeata.de/repo_http:__darcs.net_.html#bundle-dc00944f3f8705ec63485ca68e1608e408f28fc4 -> http://darcswatch.nomeata.de/repo_http:__darcs.net_reviewed.html#bundle-e9ff75497a3d31faa0fa9528509ebf74df28124c
2011-05-10 18:06:27darcswatchsetdarcswatchurl: http://darcswatch.nomeata.de/repo_http:__darcs.net_reviewed.html#bundle-e9ff75497a3d31faa0fa9528509ebf74df28124c -> http://darcswatch.nomeata.de/repo_http:__darcs.net_reviewed.html#bundle-dc00944f3f8705ec63485ca68e1608e408f28fc4
2011-05-10 19:35:58darcswatchsetdarcswatchurl: http://darcswatch.nomeata.de/repo_http:__darcs.net_reviewed.html#bundle-dc00944f3f8705ec63485ca68e1608e408f28fc4 -> http://darcswatch.nomeata.de/repo_http:__darcs.net_reviewed.html#bundle-21193f160ca3215a81e05fc4be8bc3c06dba3bc1
2011-05-10 21:36:23darcswatchsetmessages: + msg14355
2011-05-10 22:07:54darcswatchsetdarcswatchurl: http://darcswatch.nomeata.de/repo_http:__darcs.net_reviewed.html#bundle-21193f160ca3215a81e05fc4be8bc3c06dba3bc1 -> http://darcswatch.nomeata.de/repo_http:__darcs.net_reviewed.html#bundle-5a6891f80f6f0d1562e5991ab32b72601e6bab9e